Brewing Success with John Eitel: Turning Sales + Marketing into One Growth Team

What happens when growth stalls and alignment breaks down between marketing and sales? John Eitel, Chief Growth Officer at Orum, has made a career out of solving just that. In this episode of Pipeline Brew, John joins host Matt Hummel, CMO at Pipeline360, to share how CGOs think differently about scale, structure, and strategic focus.

From his early days scaling Rackspace to leadership roles at Canva, Demandbase, and now Orum, John opens up about the biggest changes he’s seen when it comes to building high-performing GTM teams. He dives into the pressures revenue leaders face today, the value of brand in a demand-heavy world, and why sales-marketing tension is still so common.

You’ll also hear why John believes onboarding is more listening than doing, the steps modern distributed teams can take to build trust, and why alignment starts with shared KPIs and honest communication. If you’re responsible for growth, or accountable to it, this episode is a blueprint for leading with clarity, empathy, and measurable impact.

John Eitel is a seasoned revenue and go-to-market leader with over 20 years of experience accelerating growth in B2B SaaS, cloud, and digital businesses. He’s built and scaled high-performance teams across sales, marketing, operations, and customer success in both emerging startups and large enterprises exceeding $1 billion in revenue.

Known for transforming underperforming organizations and launching successful market expansions, John combines strategic vision with operational discipline and a people-first leadership philosophy. He’s passionate about coaching leaders, aligning cross-functional teams around outcomes, and driving measurable business impact.

“Not to say we abandon all other numbers and metrics, but at the end of the day, that shared understanding that pipeline is everyone’s problem is so important. I think if you can get that common agreement . . . that really does force a good, healthy dialogue.”

“In that first month of onboarding, remember you have two ears and one mouth. Listen more than you talk. Resist the urge to just take action right out of the gates and start kind of showing up with your point of view. Ask a ton of questions, take a lot of notes, listen, absorb; people will notice.”

“I learned early in my career the power of when [marketing and sales] are aligned. It’s a magical thing. But many folks never ever get to see that, right? I now have responsibility for sales and marketing, and so this has been fun for me to lean out of my comfort zone and bridge that gap even more so and really put my money where my mouth is.”

00:00 Episode start

01:25 Icebreaker

03:00 John’s background

06:15 Finding alignment across distributed teams

09:45 Marketing misunderstandings on revenue

13:00 Closing the sales/marketing gap

16:20 Finding the balance between brand and demand

20:05 Aligning sales and marketing around pipeline

28:10 The one metric that ties everything together

34:40 Advice for new GTM leaders

39:00 How customer trust shapes sustainable growth

42:15 What’s on Tap for John Eitel

[00:00:00] Matt Hummel: Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Pipeline Brew, the podcast that meets at the intersection of people and pipeline. We’re bringing you fun yet insightful conversations where you’ll not only hear from marketing experts, but also get to know them as well.

[00:00:23] Matt Hummel: Hey, everyone. Today I’m super excited to be joined by John Eitel John recently joined Orum, an AI powered live conversation platform as their chief growth officer, and will bring a wealth of valuable revenue and growth experience to the show today. In our conversation, we’re gonna focus on demystifying the role of the CGO, along with how the role has evolved, which metrics and signals are most valuable to the CGO and why.

[00:00:48] Matt Hummel: And last but not least, how to determine where to focus your efforts as budgets, tighten and demand increases. With that, John, welcome to the show. How are you my friend? I am doing great, Matt. Good to see you, and [00:01:00] excited to have the conversation today. Good to see you as well. It’s always nice connecting with Texans.

[00:01:05] Matt Hummel: I still, although I live in Colorado, I still consider myself a Texan despite the fact that there are 10 inches of snow outside my window right now. I’m sure it’s not the same for you.

[00:01:15] John Eitel: We’re having actually a bit of a rougher spot, I think. So it was 20 degrees or 30 degrees the other night. So it’s actually colder right now in Texas.

[00:01:22] John Eitel: But, you know, typical Texas winter, it’s gonna be in the seventies next week. So, you know, you just, you never know. You could be wearing shorts or a sweater, you know, it depends on the day, depends on the time of day. But, uh, yeah, it, it’s been been a bit of a colder, uh, week this week.

[00:01:37] Matt Hummel: No doubt. Well, you know, I’d like to start off each episode with a little bit of icebreaker.

[00:01:42] Matt Hummel: So with that, John, what is your go-to beverage when you need a little pick me up.

[00:01:47] John Eitel: I, you know, it was funny, we were talking before this about, uh, some of the things we’ve been trying, I’ve been a big LMNT guy. So, or elements, uh, yeah. You know, depending on how you pronounce it there. But I, you know, I buy it in bulk and [00:02:00] probably drink two or three, you know, kind of water bottles a day of it.

[00:02:03] John Eitel: And, you know, it really has helped me keep my water intake up while, you know, kind of keeping it, keeping it different. What’s your go-to flavor with element? So I just, uh, I just picked up a box of the mango chili. It’s a little bit of spice and the salt there, but, uh, you know, I, I typically go with the watermelon salt or the raspberry salt, just for like my, yeah, my daily drinker.

[00:02:23] John Eitel: I’m, I’m on a little bit of a kick of trying something new with, uh, with the mango.

[00:02:27] Matt Hummel: There you go. So can you handle all a thousand milligrams of sodium in one or do you kind of distribute it out amongst your two or three water bottles? I,

[00:02:35] John Eitel: yeah, I can just fill up one. I think like, it’s like the larger 30 ounce maybe water bottles.

[00:02:39] John Eitel: Yeah. So. But, you know, has me drinking two to three, you know, kinda water bottles full a day, which is I think, right, right, right on track or ahead of my, you know, kind of water intake. Uh, so staying hydrated for sure.

[00:02:50] Matt Hummel: There you go. Well, before we talk about what you’re up to today, I’d love for you to tell the audience a little bit more about yourself, your passions and your background.

[00:02:57] John Eitel: Yeah. Yeah. So I’ve been doing this for a while, I [00:03:00] guess, uh, 20 plus years. I’ve stopped counting at, uh, 20 there, you know, cut my teeth, I think early in my career, you know, came outta school. Made my way to an early stage startup, a company that was, you know, kind of a team with a dream. And that time actually kinda shaped who I am.

[00:03:15] John Eitel: Probably I would say, you know, that team with a dream grew up and I spent 13 years in total there. And, you know, over that time I held various roles, became someone who was always just kind of game for a challenge and willing to lean into, you know, something that needed to be built or scaled in a different way.

[00:03:31] John Eitel: And so. After that 13 year kind of stint, you know, we were publicly traded when I left a $2 billion, you know, revenue company global around the world. You know, it gave me this really good understanding of the different stages and phases of growth and what’s needed from leaders at each one. And uh, you know, it gave me the ability to actually say like, where did I have the most fun?

[00:03:50] John Eitel: Where did I have the most impact? You know, where did I run to work and where did I have to psych myself up that day to go in? And, you know, it was largely when we were going through moments of growth and transition and so. [00:04:00] That’s what I’ve been doing ever since. I really think of myself as someone who’s a scale up leader who you know, helps, you know, companies navigate the awkward adolescence phase.

[00:04:09] John Eitel: So when they’ve gotten to a point where, you know, growth starts to become challenged, or it’s not as easy as it used to be, and things aren’t as repeatable, and you’re starting to see lots of variability, you know, I’ve got a good mind for how to come in and assess the situation and take an organization and a team through those different challenges.

[00:04:25] John Eitel: I’ve done it, uh, four or five times now. I, I was at, uh, you know, a, a company called Spiceworks, WP Engine. Canva helped them move from Australia into the us, which was a lot of fun. Demand base where you and I shared some time together and, uh, now at Orum. So it’s, uh, you know, it’s been fun, you know, taking what I learned at Rackspace, which was that company I spent 13 years at and, and going to all these companies that find themselves in these moments and really helping them think about how to mature their efforts and grow up.

[00:04:52] Matt Hummel: Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned three companies, WP Engine, spice Works, and Rackspace. I worked a couple years in Austin for Thisbe [00:05:00] Company Social Solutions and. It seems like everybody in Austin has either worked at Dell, which you did mention WP Engine Spice Works or Rackspace. It’s a big city, but it is a small, it seems like a small tech community.

[00:05:13] John Eitel: Yeah. Yeah. It is funny, like you usually get the opportunity to be a alumni of like one of these companies. Right. You know, and I do have this like unique background that I probably got to hit a lot of the, you know, the ones that many people know or that that had a lot of people coming into, ’cause we were growing and so.

[00:05:28] John Eitel: Yeah, it has been, uh, it has been fun and I do think it is a small world, you know, at this stage and phase of my career. You know, getting to see where folks that were on my team went, uh, you know, the companies that were spun off by people that were parts of those teams and companies. You know, it is really, really neat to see.

[00:05:43] John Eitel: You know, as you know, Austin’s tech ecosystem continues to kind of grow and thrive in different ways.

[00:05:49] Matt Hummel: No doubt. So, John, before we get too deep into our conversation, I wanted to, you know, get a better sense of what you’re doing now at Orem. I think you joined in July, is that correct?

[00:05:57] John Eitel: Yeah, so I joined in July.

[00:05:59] John Eitel: I’ve been here about five, [00:06:00] six months. So still kind of in the early stages and phases of kind of like getting to know the team and you know, kind of taking them through the journey that they’re on. That’s great. And is this an Austin-based company or are you guys fully remote? Fully distributed. So no headquarters.

[00:06:13] John Eitel: I think that’s always a question I get is like, where are your office is and I think we, you know, we are one of those companies that was really born in the pandemic, so we don’t have, you know, the, uh. Physical office or head headquarters that many companies have. And so we’ve had to grow and scale to over 130 people distributed all over the us you know, so we’re, there’s a couple pockets in different places, but I’d say majority of the team is, you know, everywhere, which is a, which is a cool thing to learn and, you know, be able to help them kind of think about growth while being, you know, distributed with no boundaries there.

[00:06:44] Matt Hummel: I guess that was similar experience to what we had at Demandbase, fully distributed. You know, there were a couple pockets. I know there was a little pocket in Austin, but it is. Mm-hmm. It’s fun. It’s a great opportunity. It’s also, I think, presents some unique challenges, especially when you’re coming in, in such a critical role, because it really [00:07:00] requires a lot more, you know, focused discipline.

[00:07:03] Matt Hummel: Be able to get to know people, get to know truly what’s going on. Has that been. Has that been your experience or what has been your experience?

[00:07:08] John Eitel: Yeah, and I mean, I’ve done this a couple times, you know, like many of us over the last five years, I would say like Canada was a fun one because when I joined, like the goal was like come, you know, onboard in three weeks in Sydney and then, you know, go back to your home base in, in Austin and go open up the headquarters in Austin.

[00:07:24] John Eitel: And you know, when I flew back, the pandemic hit and everything changed. Right. And so, you know, I remember actually flying back on that day that, you know, we all got text messages every five minutes of something being canceled or called off. And, uh. You know, when I was flying back, you know, I remember like landing and thinking I probably don’t need that office anymore.

[00:07:41] John Eitel: And so we, we, you know, spent a year or two without an office actually, and then we eventually went into a hub strategy because we felt like that was the right thing to do to help us scale. And onboard and, and really be able to, to move at that pace and speed, you know, again, demand base, you know, we were distributed with, with a H hq, [00:08:00] but not, you know, much of a, of a physical office presence.

[00:08:02] John Eitel: So we had to work through a lot of those kind of same things. And, and now, you know, at Orum. I have a strong opinion on this actually. ’cause I think you’re starting to hear the rise of like return to office with a lot of companies. You’re seeing the benefits and the challenges. You know, as you mentioned, I think there still is, you know, plenty, plenty of them.

[00:08:20] John Eitel: And so I think, you know, my, my belief is largely, you know, kind of landed on that. I think that for most teams a hybrid solution or a hub solution at, at a certain stage and phase makes a lot of sense. But I think it’s a really fun thing too. ’cause you get to think about. Different teams and different parts of the organization and who needs it versus who doesn’t need it.

[00:08:39] John Eitel: And I think, you know, there’s certain roles that I might argue we’ll never go back to an office and that’s okay. And like we should embrace that advantage and use the tools and technology to, to bridge that gap. But, uh, you know, there are certain teams, you know, my background is largely sales and I would say, you know, sales and CS and even marketers, like they thrive usually in like highly [00:09:00] collaborative environments and they really need sometimes the.

[00:09:03] John Eitel: Immediate feedback of being able to talk to people or be able to riff on things or to go into a room with a whiteboard, you know? And so for certain teams, that gap is being felt more. And so I think that’s where, you know, companies need to think about if we want to be fully hybrid, does it matter, you know, uh, for many it may, you know, may, may never return to an office for, you know, for certain companies when you get into a certain scale and sage and size, you know, having those moments of connection, you know, having those abilities to come together, the ability to get those feedback loops.

[00:09:31] John Eitel: You know, figuring out how to embrace the two.

[00:09:34] Matt Hummel: No, that’s really cool. I feel like we could spend this entire episode talking about return to office and all that. So I didn’t realize you had, uh, such passion in that area, but I wanna pick your brain on your unique perspective that you bring. My sense is a lot of marketers don’t truly understand the pressures.

[00:09:50] Matt Hummel: That revenue leaders face. So I’d love to clear up some misconceptions around what you’ve heard. So what do you think, whether it’s just [00:10:00] anecdotally or what you’ve heard from marketers that they just don’t really understand about, you know, what you face as a revenue leader?

[00:10:06] John Eitel: Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot. I mean, and, and, and you know, you and I have talked about this and even, you know, when we were together at Demandbase, you know, I actually wrote a book with our CMO, which was.

[00:10:16] John Eitel: You know about, you know, a lot of, like, how do you break down those silos and how do you build and foster better communication? Because I think the power is like sales and marketing altogether is one. I think that’s one of the side effects of going distributed, right? Is that like, it probably forced the divide even wider and it’s broken down communication and you know, some of the things that we, you know, relied on to build trust and build that connection.

[00:10:39] John Eitel: It really has, I think, made this a bigger topic. Again, you know, it’s always, it’s a tale as old as time, like cats and dogs. Um, but I think that you do really see it and kind of feel it more, but I think like bigger things that I, you know, just witnessed and observed, you know, throughout my time is like, it starts even with the upbringing, I think like, you know, marketers go to school and learn marketing [00:11:00] sales.

[00:11:00] John Eitel: You don’t typically have a degree program though that’s changing and starting to show up a little bit more and more like sales. Is almost kind of taught on the street and you know, in the role there. And so it is like marketers are classically trained. Sales professionals tend to be a little bit more scrappy and fly by the seat of their pants and don’t have that kind of, you know, kind of knowledge sometimes to draw on.

[00:11:20] John Eitel: We speak different languages at times, right? So I think that there is. Bits and pieces of that, you know, we think in different horizons, right? You know, I do think that, you know, sales can be quarterly or monthly, you know, with, with, you know, quotas tied to kind of production. Whereas, you know, marketers, you know, probably think more longer term, you know, and so that horizon kind of, uh, dissidence does cause some, you know, some of the challenges.

[00:11:44] John Eitel: And so I think that you have to have that awareness when you come into this for both sides, right? I think that marketers are just as, you know, much under the same gun as sales is, but I think understanding. The pressure cooker that we’re under to be able to drive results consecutively month over month or quarter over [00:12:00] quarter, you know, to, to deliver.

[00:12:01] John Eitel: And, you know, being able to think about how you can match production, you know, in your world to, to match that, you know, anxiety or at least, you know, be able to, to think about the short term and the long term, not just, you know, kind of the long term there. So, um, you know, those are the bigger things, but I think when we get to understand each other and we get to understand like those.

[00:12:21] John Eitel: Kind of differences and we understand how to break down those communication gaps. Like that’s how you kind of fix it.

[00:12:27] Matt Hummel: It’s so interesting. I’ve never thought about the education piece. You use the term classically trained for marketers, which is true. I’m a, by that definition, a classically trained marketer, and it’s really, I hadn’t really thought about the cultural impact.

[00:12:39] Matt Hummel: As you start to unpack that, I mean. I’m sure you’re familiar with the book, whether you’ve read it or not. You know, men are from Mars, women are from Venus. And I don’t wanna make a one-to-one parallel here, but in reality, men and women are husbands and wives. Partners are working in the same direction.

[00:12:53] Matt Hummel: They want the same things, generally speaking, but the way in which we think about things is so radically different. And so when you start to [00:13:00] truly understand each other, but we don’t, we don’t really take that approach at work. We just sort of. It’s not like we say this is how it has to be, and we’re just forcing, you know, our ways on each other.

[00:13:09] Matt Hummel: But I don’t know that we really put the thought and the strategic thinking and the time, frankly, require to really break down some of those barriers and understand, even with best intentions, if you’re not speaking the same language again, to your point, that true alignment can be really, really tough. So that’s a really interesting point you’ve made there.

[00:13:28] John Eitel: Yeah. Yeah. Like I love the book, you know, and I think, uh, you know, it’s helped me in my personal life and, uh. Professionally as well. But I think that’s exactly it. And I think, you know, you’ve been doing this for a while, for you to have that epiphany, I think is isn’t a unique one too. It’s, you know, it’s not uncommon.

[00:13:43] John Eitel: And I think, you know, on the sales side, you know, again, because they’re not classically trained, they don’t really understand, you know, they didn’t, didn’t go to school and learn about marketing most times. Right? Like, they don’t even understand. That there is a difference or a nuance, right? And so that’s just a big jump off point, right?

[00:13:58] John Eitel: To be able to understand that, [00:14:00] you know, and be able to kind of, you know, at least put ourselves in the other person’s shoes from time to time.

[00:14:05] Matt Hummel: And you used the word scrappy too, which that was a lesson I learned probably 10 years ago. But I, I still have to remind myself of it because as marketers we often get into this quarterly planning and we’ve got everything mapped out, and it all has to fit in this nice cadence.

[00:14:19] Matt Hummel: And trust me, John, just trust the process. Mm-hmm. It’s all gonna work out great. And you’re gonna be thrilled. Meanwhile, you’re just trying to hunt and bring revenue in as sales reps, sales leaders. And yes, you, you certainly want the value and goodness of marketing, but at the end of the day, you’re just out there grinding, trying to bring in as much revenue as you can.

[00:14:38] Matt Hummel: So it’s a, it’s an interesting way to think about it.

[00:14:41] John Eitel: Yeah. Yeah. And look, I think being able to adjust, you know, to that, I mean, I, I mentor and speak to a lot of peers, but there was one, you know, kind of CRO that I mentor, and he was basically saying that, you know, his marketing leader was like. You know, not delivering, you know, on kind of demand expectations, but it was because he was, you know, focused on doing a brand [00:15:00] relaunch.

[00:15:00] John Eitel: And he was like, six months from now you’re gonna thank me. You know, it’s gonna be great when we get the brand relaunch done. And you know, he was like, I. You know about to lose my mind or blow a gasket, John, I don’t think I’ll be here in six months. Right. So again, kind of like showing that the misalignments, you know, on goals sometimes can add pressure to the situation.

[00:15:18] John Eitel: Right. And build the anxiety a little bit more.

[00:15:20] Matt Hummel: Yeah. Well, and the brand piece, it’s so tough because, you know, I’m a big believer that brand drives demand. Good brand drives demand. Trained by that, actually by a leader who’s based in Austin, who used to be the CMO of Dell, oddly enough. And she just hammered that point into me.

[00:15:36] Matt Hummel: ’cause again, when I was working at a Vista company, my CRO at the time was, I don’t care about brand. I just need more leads, more leads, more leads, more at bats, more opportunities. And you know, I was younger, my career at this point, so I’m like, alright, I’ll just roll my sleeves. I’ll put all my money towards demand.

[00:15:52] Matt Hummel: When the new CEO came in, she’s like. Why aren’t we doing brand? Yeah, you, you do realize that brand makes everything so much [00:16:00] easier. It takes the value of your demand just accelerates it, but the realities that marketers face, and to your point, sales leaders face the patience and the willingness to say, you know, and I think part of it is misconception of what brand actually is.

[00:16:14] Matt Hummel: It’s not just colors and logos and fonts and all that stuff. It’s really that underlying story and what makes you different and that narrative that you’re taking to the market. How you can position yourselves to go win. But it, but it does take time and it just seems like a lot of companies don’t have patience to really invest in, in that long-term view.

[00:16:35] Matt Hummel: So I don’t know what you, now that you’re sitting over sales and marketing, if you have a more definitive point of view on it or. You know, again, as if, if you would consider more yourself more of that classic sales leader of like yeah, just gimme more of bats.

[00:16:48] John Eitel: Yeah. And actually for context on that and then I’ll answer for sure.

[00:16:51] John Eitel: Like, as Matt’s alluding to, so I’ve, you know, predominantly spent my career in sales. I would probably characterize, you know, if you looked at my background, you would say obviously a more of a traditional sales [00:17:00] background. I’ve always been marketing adjacent. I’ve always been a great partner to marketing.

[00:17:04] John Eitel: You know, I learned early in my career also similarly, like the power of like, when those two teams are aligned, like it’s a magical thing, you know? And when both are like rowing in the same direction, it’s a magical thing, you know? But many, many folks, never one ever get to see that. Right? And so that’s.

[00:17:20] John Eitel: Harder to believe it if you can’t see it or haven’t seen it. Right? Yeah. Uh, I now have responsibility for sales and marketing, and so this has been fun for me to actually kind of lean outta my comfort zone and, and bridge that gap even more so, and, and you know, really put my money, you know, where my mouth is.

[00:17:35] John Eitel: So, back to your question, I also believe that brand and demand are tightly coupled and, you know, it is a such a powerful thing too, when those things are in, you know, unison, I think. Many sales leaders and sellers for that part don’t understand, you know, brand like it. Just, again, maybe back to the classical training and upbringing, like they’ve heard the term, they understand the concept, but they don’t really know.

[00:17:59] John Eitel: [00:18:00] Why it’s important and why, you know, it is, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s playing the long game. Right. You know, and I think, you know, it really does keep you solid through tough times as well. You know, like people will buy from, you know, again, people that they, they know, like, and trust, right. And, uh, you know, your brand conveys that at a really massive scale there.

[00:18:18] John Eitel: And it’s something that stays true, you know, if you do it right through those tough times. And so it is, you know, it’s fun when teams get to see and sense that, but I think like. Absolutely. Without a doubt, a hundred percent. When I was early in my career, I probably did not care as much about brand or didn’t understand the importance of brand.

[00:18:36] John Eitel: Right. And so I think, you know, it’s just a good awareness point to bring up of like, you know, you may be, you know, shouting from the rooftop of why this is important, but the person on the other side just doesn’t get it or isn’t really ready to hear it yet because they don’t understand. And so I think that’s, uh.

[00:18:50] John Eitel: A good point of like, how do you double down on communication and you know, kind of showing and sharing, you know, what brand moments look like and how they help and amplify the work that we’re [00:19:00] doing and how they make selling easier, because that just isn’t, you know, something that’s just completely understood by the person on the other side.

[00:19:06] Matt Hummel: Yeah, and it’s such a great point too. If you’ve had experience where you’ve seen the fruits of the labor in building a strong brand, then it goes a long way, somebody. Recently asked me, I think it was a, a customer that I was meeting with, they said, Matt, as a CMO, how do you convince your board and your CEO to invest in brand?

[00:19:23] Matt Hummel: And I said, I wish I had an easy answer, thankfully for me. The lesson I’ve learned is you really have to have a CEO or a board who has seen that, to your point, who has seen the experience and and experienced the goodness that comes from a strong brand. Because you know, my current role as CMO at Pipeline 360, my CEO gets that, and he’s actually encouraged and pushed me to invest more and more into our brand.

[00:19:46] Matt Hummel: And part of that is because our buyers don’t buy in that more traditional demand motion. We’re more of a relationship driven sales motion. But interestingly, you know, to kind of double down on your point, our sellers see that because when I [00:20:00] joined and I started to really double down on our brand, they were saying, what’s marketing contribution to the business?

[00:20:05] Matt Hummel: You? What’s, what percentage of pipeline are they gonna give me? How many at bats are they gonna produce on a monthly basis? And I just said. That’s not how our buyers buy. And they’re like, oh, that’s right. I, they, they almost had that epiphany too of, you know what? You’re right. Our buyers, it’s, it’s all about who you know and it, and it really is how do we differentiate ourselves?

[00:20:24] Matt Hummel: And so what’s been cool to see though, is all the inbound that we get is not through paid media here at Pipeline three six, or at least a small part of it is. It’s really because people have seen our name out there, whether it was at a trade show or they’ve seen our thought leadership. They’ve picked up the phone, they’ve called or they’ve gone to our website and filled out a form.

[00:20:43] Matt Hummel: And so our sellers have started to really get behind and understand why we’re doing what we’re doing. And it’s been, it’s been great to see because I could put all the money in the world towards, again, more of a traditional demand approach, but in our world. It just wouldn’t work. And so not that brand only matters if demand [00:21:00] doesn’t, but yeah, it’s been neat to see sellers really start to under, you know, see firsthand the value of good brand.

[00:21:06] John Eitel: Yeah. As I say, I know your audience gets this topic, but I would say like as the sales, you know, kind of mindset maybe, you know, I think it, it does. Absolutely. You know, brand is those dollars that you spend that don’t immediately show, you know, that impact or ROI and it’s hard to quantify, but I think. You know, it does show up.

[00:21:23] John Eitel: You know, when you know you’re calling out and, and people know who you are and you know, they’re, they’re coming to you because they’ve heard of you or they’ve, they’ve used you in the past. Right. And so it does have this massive, you know, halo effect. And I think some of the, like actually my marketing team today, I think does a really great job of talking about.

[00:21:38] John Eitel: Brand moments and some of the demand, you know, kind of things that we do. So they really do a good job of stitching the two together. Like when we go to events, you know, and we talk about like our activations at events, you know, which tend to be kind of more, you know, kind of, they, they probably split the two, but I would say often in seller’s minds, they think about like, how many, how many leads do we get from that event?

[00:21:57] John Eitel: Right. You know? Yep. So that kind of falls into that demand [00:22:00] category. Being able to talk about how we showed up in a unique way and we were able to really kind of live and embody the brand. Right. And that’s, you know, why at that conference, you know, in, in a sea of tables on a trade floor, like people came to talk to us.

[00:22:12] Matt Hummel: Yeah, I love to hear that. Well, one thing I’ve been noticing a lot is the lines between sales and marketing have gotten blurrier. And I think part of that is there was an over, you know, pivot to marketing being a. Revenue generating function. That’s where I think we saw for a, a season must spend on, on things like brand.

[00:22:31] Matt Hummel: And I think where marketing is today is a better balance. I think brands are starting to reinvest in brand and do proper demand motions. We’re seeing tighter alignment, you know, typically between sales and marketing, or at least to desire for that. And yet the two departments are still different. So even, even with alignment, it’s kind of back to that me versus woman.

[00:22:51] Matt Hummel: Yeah. You know, discussion. We’re still different. So, you know, where do you see, you know, just kind of in a nutshell, where do you see the real unique value of [00:23:00] sales? The real unique value of marketing in sort of that, you know, perfect marriage, if you will.

[00:23:05] John Eitel: Yeah, good question. And I agree with everything you’re saying about how did we get here, one, because of all the shifting in the world and things that we’ve kind of gone through and endured and it probably drove us apart, now we’re getting more driven back together, you know, or forced back together.

[00:23:18] John Eitel: And the overlap is, you know, becoming more and more apparent. I think it, look, I’m here for it, I would say is actually like my first response on it. I think it’s. You know, so important to have those two together working more in an overlapped fashion. You know, I oftentimes, when I explain it or describe it, I’m like, you know, it is kind of like the air war versus the ground war, right?

[00:23:38] John Eitel: Where it’s like, okay, if we are doing all the right things, the battle gets won. You know, sorry for the war reference, but like, it just, it, it resonated with me of like, marketing can cover more surface area from the air there, you know? But when it comes down to like the day-to-day tactical execution, you need, you know, kind of troops on the field, and that’s.

[00:23:55] John Eitel: How those two really work together and compliment each other in a good way. But I think having those [00:24:00] moments of like, let’s make sure that we have clear understandings of like expectations, you know, between the two groups and like the handoffs between them is so important because that’s, you know, what, what really has to happen in that kind of overlaps concentric circle kind of story here is the two need to make sure that when I do one thing, you know, it hands back to, you know, hands over to you and you know, it may come back to me and you know, what are our different kind of touch points handoffs and how do we execute this?

[00:24:23] John Eitel: More effectively, which means communication. It means adapting together. It means like testing things and making sure that if it doesn’t work the way you expected, like you make a change to the strategy, not just keep doing, you know, the same things over and over, expecting a different outcome.

[00:24:37] Matt Hummel: I love that and I, I like your analogy.

[00:24:39] Matt Hummel: Air War versus ground war. It’s kinda like, you know, Air Force and Army. And I live about five minutes from the Air Force Academy out here in Colorado Springs. And it’s funny ’cause Air Force often gets referred to as the chair force, you know, they’re just, oh, you just fly your planes around and. And it’s funny, you go back to when you called sales a little bit scrappier.

[00:24:56] Matt Hummel: Yeah. You know, I, I’m, look, I’m a, I’m a classic marketer. I’m [00:25:00] here for that. I like the analogy, so that’s awesome. Well, you’ve been at Orum for about six months. What practical advice do you have for other sales leaders or marketing leaders just as you’ve come into this new company? Around how to start to build that bridge between the two groups and really create some early wins in that overall alignment to help drive that success.

[00:25:20] John Eitel: Yeah. Look, I think coming into, I’ll start with like coming into a new company and then I’ll kind of take it down to sales and marketing, but it’s like coming in like something that a mentor like in parted on me early on that really is just like, you know, resonated and I’ve used it everywhere I’ve gone is like in that first like, you know, month of that 90 day, you know, kind of onboarding.

[00:25:37] John Eitel: Remember, you have two ears in one mouth. Listen more than you talk. And I think, you know, for any leader, you know, who’s done this a couple times, it’s normal for us to have like ways that we think that that things need to be done. And, you know, just biases when you come in, but resist the urge to just take action right out of the, uh, gates and start kind of showing up with your point of view.

[00:25:57] John Eitel: Ask a ton of questions, take a lot of notes, [00:26:00] listen, absorb, people will notice. And I think like once you make it through that first 30 days, like I actually like to bring the team along in the journey. So it’s always kind of like a natural step of like getting in front of the team. ’cause I think a lot of folks are like, all right, this new leader’s been kind of silently, you know, kind of following us or you know, kind of attending meetings and showing up in different ways.

[00:26:18] John Eitel: What are they doing? And so I think it’s great to just be able to say, look, I spent 30 days and you know, you all gave me so much great feedback. Here’s the things that I heard. Look, here’s my plan of action and how we’re gonna make these changes and really adapt and evolve as an organization. And I think like it’s a great moment, you know, for them to also say like, you got it wrong.

[00:26:34] John Eitel: Keep, keep, keep asking questions. Uh,

[00:26:36] Matt Hummel: yeah.

[00:26:36] John Eitel: You know, either that or buy in and, and understand the reasoning behind some of the things that you’re doing. And so I’d say like, doesn’t matter what role you’re in, any putting new to a company, you know, it’d say. Early in your career or late in your career, like, just kind of remember that when you come in, I just, I’ve seen so many people mess that one up where they jump in with a strong point of views and look at a, a belief on how things should be done.

[00:26:56] John Eitel: And you miss some things. You miss some cues, you miss some cultural [00:27:00] nuances. You miss some reasons why things are done a certain way and you come off as you know, kind. Uninformed and that can just have that kind of wrecking ball effect when you walk into the organization and start changing things haphazardly.

[00:27:12] John Eitel: So doing it, you know, with the org informed, spending the time in the right way and being upfront with, you know, whoever you work for. You know, every CEO or founder that I’ve worked for coming in, usually I’m like, this is my process. And just making sure that they’re aware so that they’re not like, okay, you know, John hasn’t in two weeks changed the entire organization and like, you know, restructured the sales process, you know, and it’s like, no, that’s intangible.

[00:27:34] John Eitel: And that’s. You know why I am doing it this way.

[00:27:37] Matt Hummel: Again, you mentioned the cultural piece of it, which I think is. It’s such a good one to call out because I think you, you’ve got sort of an, an approach, a playbook if you will, when you come into a new company, you know how to work it. And I think a lot of people do.

[00:27:49] Matt Hummel: They can read a book on it. Mm-hmm. But it’s that cultural piece that I see is so often either missed or becomes overwhelming for people, especially folks who’ve been at, you know, one company for so [00:28:00] long. It’s such a big adjustment and I think it’s the same reason why most acquisitions. Fail, or at least don’t reach that, you know, the degree of success that they hope for.

[00:28:10] Matt Hummel: It’s, it’s not because the companies were a bad fit, it’s, it’s the cultural piece. And I think it’s just an underappreciated part of what makes new leaders, new employees, acquisitions, all of that truly successful. So I’m glad you called that out ’cause I think that’s so critical.

[00:28:25] John Eitel: Yeah. Yeah. You’re right.

[00:28:26] John Eitel: Now you have to respect it. You have to understand it. You have to, you know, kind of show that when you come in, I think, you know, and, uh, you’re right. I mean, I’ve done m and a in my career and I would say like all the acquisitions that we really messed up, it was ’cause we rushed to like, implement all of our heavy systems and like redirect their priorities.

[00:28:44] John Eitel: Right. You know, and you completely, uh, you know, spin them. And then a year later it’s like, gosh, they’ve lost momentum. They’re not, you know, the same company we bought. And it’s like, yes, we did it to them because we didn’t. Come in and understand and respect and come in in a thoughtful, methodical way. But back to sales and [00:29:00] marketing, like, I think, like as part of that assessment, like usually I’m getting to know my team.

[00:29:03] John Eitel: I’m usually to getting to know, you know, my partners in this, you know, kind of, uh, situation. And so, you know, understanding like what is the current state, what are the gaps? I think part of that first 30 days should be part of your assessment and then. Usually it comes down to some common culprits, but I would say it typically is like, do we have goals that align?

[00:29:22] John Eitel: You know, and I think I, you know, you get to also play the new guy card or gal card in that first 30 days and ask lots of questions that may be like seemingly dumb, you know? Uh, but look, you get a, you get a hall pass for that. But I think, like, typically I’m asking like, what are your, you know, kind of KPIs goals, you know, metrics that you’re using.

[00:29:40] John Eitel: Understanding how they’re performing against them, and then also stacking them side by side. Right. You know, sales and marketing and making sure, do we have alignment or overlap in those things? Many times we don’t. Like, I think that’s, you know, back to the question of like, you know, how are we different?

[00:29:53] John Eitel: Why are we different? Typically finance sets the goals for both of us and not in a collaborative manner, you know, and a lot [00:30:00] of times. They’re not, you know, illin intentioned on this, but they wanna push us both, right? And so they do it in isolation to maybe, you know, get the bo out, you know, the most out of both of us, uh, or both organizations.

[00:30:11] John Eitel: But, you know, inevitably what happens is because we’re not aligned, you know, those goals may not be working together and sometimes they might be an opposition of each other. So I think like understanding that, you know, making sure that both, you know, teams understand each other’s goals and objectives and where they overlap and like, what is our.

[00:30:27] John Eitel: You know, cadence of communication. I think that’s one that I always kind of spot right out of the gates is, you know, we’ve all had to adapt really quickly to distributed work environments here. And I think communication sometimes has suffered. And I think you have to just constantly look at that and, and, and, you know, challenge and test new ways to communicate.

[00:30:44] John Eitel: And not everything has to be a meeting, you know, I think that’s, you know, kind of the first thing. Like everybody knee jerks the other way when it gets out of alignment. But I think like thinking about what are the right meetings, what are the right dashboards, what are the right slack channels? You know, what are the things that could be an email and making sure that they’re [00:31:00] established, you know, quickly and understood there and, and that really, I think is some of the things you can just get some quick wins on, because I think that’s the thing that everybody seems to suffer with as we go through it.

[00:31:09] Matt Hummel: Yeah. Well, I appreciate your intentionality on this, and I know, look, I know this is a big part of what makes you such a great leader, but the communications piece too, I’ll just double down on the importance of that because I think a lot of times it’s easy just to get into a rhythm of. You know, well, we have an update call and that’s when I’ll talk to my marketing team next, or marketing leader, but just creating just an intentional approach.

[00:31:32] Matt Hummel: Again, I go back to a marriage analogy. Yeah, I think a lot of marriages really struggle because they just don’t communicate. My wife and I went to counseling years ago, not because things were bad, but because. We just knew things could be better. And it was interesting. In the same way, there’s no, you know, classic education for sellers.

[00:31:50] Matt Hummel: You don’t really go to school to learn how to be married effectively. Yeah. There’s no handbook,

[00:31:54] John Eitel: just like parenting as well. No,

[00:31:55] Matt Hummel: no. Yeah. And even if there is a, you know, it’s not gonna apply to our unique [00:32:00] situations. Yeah. But the, the best thing we took away was just. An understanding of how to actually communicate.

[00:32:05] Matt Hummel: And that sounds so stupid for me to say that out loud as as an adult, and we’d been married for a while at this point, but it was, I mean, it was truly life changing for us both because again, it kind of went back to just aligning on expectations and getting on the same page and learning how to. Move communications along without assuming and all.

[00:32:22] Matt Hummel: So I won’t belabor the point. You get it, but Yeah, no, I’m glad you said that. Good

[00:32:26] John Eitel: is I like it. You keep on. Uh, yeah.

[00:32:29] Matt Hummel: The other real lesson I learned on just the communication piece that I’ve found so valuable in the last few years especially, is just this idea of breaking bread. Whether you can do it in person, obviously that’s ideal, but the way that I do it now with my CRO, ’cause he lives in Boston and in Colorado, is.

[00:32:46] Matt Hummel: We just make sure to talk pretty much every day. Mm-hmm. And sometimes it’s, you know, about something specific that we need. Sometimes it’s just checking in on each other. How’s your day? Hey, I heard your kids had a basketball game last night. How’d that go? Just build that relationship, [00:33:00] build that trust, because things are great when things are good at the business, but when things start to, you know, slip and pipeline’s down or bookings are down or whatever the case is, it’s easy to start getting frustrated and pointing fingers and, but if you’ve got that rapport and you’ve got that trust, I’ve just found it to be.

[00:33:17] Matt Hummel: The likelihood of sustained success if you’ve got that strong foundation is so much better.

[00:33:22] John Eitel: Well said. Yeah, and I think you’re right. You have to invest upfront, you know, and get to know the person on the other side that’ll set the foundation for success. It’ll carry you through tough times. You’re, you’re absolutely right.

[00:33:35] John Eitel: I think actually the other thing I’ll throw on this and then we’ll, you know, and, we’ll, I don’t want to beat this topic up too much, but being adaptive in that, and I think actually like. Assess meetings that you have and try to understand what is the purpose of the meeting and is it still being met? And I think like, you know, meetings will lose purpose.

[00:33:51] John Eitel: At times they’ll drift, you know? And why we set it up, you know, doesn’t serve the purpose anymore. Don’t be afraid to rip it out and blow it up. I think that’s the other thing that [00:34:00] I see a lot of folks doing is that they. Hold on to meetings that aren’t working and don’t think about like, okay, should we like totally change up the format?

[00:34:07] John Eitel: Should we kick out half the audience or should we invite more people? Right. Should we, you know, adjust, you know, over time, because I think, you know, over time we’re growing, we’re changing kind of like your marriage, uh, you know, yeah, you all we’re great at communicating, but at different, you know, kind of times in our lives when we have kids and, you know, get married and like.

[00:34:25] John Eitel: Yeah, take on work stress, right? Like that communication gets challenged or changed in different ways. It’s the same thing with an organization. And so I think you just have to be adaptive of always looking at like, is what we’re doing working? And if not, like, don’t be afraid to blow it up and change it.

[00:34:39] John Eitel: Like, I think that would be respected and appreciated when people see you’re doing that.

[00:34:43] Matt Hummel: Well, I couldn’t agree more and I think it’s easy. I, I should say it’s easier for us as leaders to say and do those things. I, you know, I was trained at Deloitte early my career. If you’re in a meeting and there’s not an agenda item that involves you, or no one’s been able to define the purpose of why you’re in the meeting.

[00:34:59] John Eitel: [00:35:00] Yeah.

[00:35:00] Matt Hummel: They just said, don’t show up.

[00:35:01] John Eitel: Yeah.

[00:35:02] Matt Hummel: And I’ve told many of my employees throughout my career and they’re like, oh, I don’t know. But I was invited to the meeting and I’m like, well, why? Well, I don’t know. I was invited. And then they’ll, and it’ll be a recurring meeting o oftentimes, and they’ll sit in, they won’t say a word.

[00:35:15] Matt Hummel: They’ll come back and, Hey, how was that meeting? What was your role? Nothing. Was there any takeaways for you? No. Then don’t go again. And so I think just, you know, again, not telling people what to do, but I just find even that same mindset for employees of take your time back and be adaptive to, at the end of the day, you’re responsible for what you’re responsible for.

[00:35:35] Matt Hummel: And you know, that should be your primary focus. So anyways, not to to continue to beat the point, but you mentioned KPIs and something that you spent some time. With your marketing team when you joined and, and obviously the sales folks as well as a CGO, you obviously have, you know, remit over both sales and marketing.

[00:35:54] Matt Hummel: If you kind of bubble things up to the top, what do you really care about from a metrics perspective? [00:36:00]

[00:36:00] John Eitel: Yeah, the metrics piece, you know, again, it’s another topic that you know is an evolution and is always something that you’re kind of adapting or changing and modeling in different ways. You know, but I think kind of back to our conversation of like the overlap, the concentric circles of sales and marketing.

[00:36:15] John Eitel: I always go back to like, pipeline is everybody’s problem. Right. You know? And, uh. You know, it is the one number, and we, you know, it’s not to say we abandon all other numbers and all other metrics, like we all have different kind of things that we need to manage and, you know, kind of, you know, make sure that we’re monitoring on a regular basis.

[00:36:31] John Eitel: But I think at the end of the day, like that shared understanding that pipeline is everyone’s problem. You know, I think it’s so important right now and it’s good to see that. I think at different times it’s been, you know, kind of pinned on one team or the other, you know, and, uh. I think if you can get that common agreement and that all these things need to work together on, that really does force a good, healthy dialogue.

[00:36:51] John Eitel: So I’d say like that’s always the tricky questions. Like pick your, you know, your one song or one album that you could listen to all your life, you know? And I think like picking one metric is [00:37:00] very similar, but I think like for me it’s always been pipeline and I feel like the world today is really supporting both teams.

[00:37:06] John Eitel: You know, kind of at least marching towards that is one common North star metric there.

[00:37:11] Matt Hummel: When you think about pipeline. As that kind of north star metric, do you think about it solely from a volume or pipeline health standpoint, or do you think about velocity closure? I’m sure you do. I mean, it’s kind of obvious, but, but when you think about, you know, again, I think marketing and sales, sales and marketing can play different roles when it comes to just overall success of pipeline.

[00:37:33] Matt Hummel: I’ve been in situations where on paper we had more than enough pipeline, but we were closing 5% of it. Yeah. Which was. It’s not good. So how do you think about, yeah, it’s just kind of unpack pipeline, you know, that metric for us a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:46] John Eitel: So I try to take the simple answer of just one, you know, and then not gonna let you off the hook.

[00:37:49] John Eitel: Look, I know it’s nuanced and I would say that’s exactly it, and I think the smart teams know that it’s nuanced and then they take it to that extra level and like go, go down there. You know, the pipeline velocity I think is [00:38:00] super important and something that I look at, you know, and like. How are we progressing it?

[00:38:04] John Eitel: And I think that’s where it really gets into kind of sometimes the sales, you know, kind of hands too, and like how we’re executing that pipeline and moving it through the different stages and phases. The aging of it is important. I mean, there’s so many different cuts I would take on it here. Yeah. If you picked one metric and you got superly nuanced, nuanced it on it, this would be the one.

[00:38:22] John Eitel: And I think the nuance gets you to the core of like, what’s going on too, in those cases. And allows you to really be able to diagnose and adapt, you know, as an, as an organization, as a team, you know, with both, both, you know, functions, working together here.

[00:38:35] Matt Hummel: No, I love it. I mean, you quickly learn. You have more levers to pull to actually drive revenue.

[00:38:39] Matt Hummel: It’s not just more, more, more. It’s. Are we, you know, can we do better? Can we do faster? Can we make even the average deal size bigger? And I, I’ve worked at companies, although it’s, again, it’s very intuitive to think, yeah, there’s many ways you can start to slice and dice and think about pipeline. I’ve worked at companies where it’s just more and more and more, more, and they’re not, they don’t take the time to really [00:39:00] start to inspect and you, you bring up a great point.

[00:39:02] Matt Hummel: When you take that time, you actually really understand what’s going on with the business and pipeline in and of itself is at the end of the day. Somebody said to me one time, what’s more important, pipeline or revenue? Like, well, pipeline doesn’t keep the lights on, so Pipeline doesn’t pay the bills. It’s revenue.

[00:39:17] Matt Hummel: But obviously pipeline is the, you know, leading indicator for that. So

[00:39:21] John Eitel: you have to kind of go to where the, you know, the puck is in these situations, you know, and I think, look, I think this is a great time of chaos right now. Like the last five years, I feel like the most dynamic years of my career, honestly.

[00:39:32] John Eitel: And they’ve changed in so many ways. And so I even like, you know, the, the nuance of. Where’s the pipeline landing, you know, by segments. You know, even like the, the big one that everybody talked about was like, let’s go lean into our install base and think about how we can get, you know, more from the customers we have because they’re easier to, you know, we’ve already acquired them, so why don’t we just think about growing them.

[00:39:52] John Eitel: Uh, so they’re the easiest acquire ’cause you have ’em. You know? And I think once you kind of over rotate that way too, then you realize, okay, like we can only, you know, [00:40:00] take so much out of this crop here. You know, we need to. You know, be able to harvest in other areas, right? And so, you know, just being adaptive and also understanding, you know, kind of your different levers around pipeline, I think is so critical.

[00:40:11] John Eitel: So yeah, it is. It is kind of funny when organizations are like, just gimme more.

[00:40:15] Matt Hummel: And I think, you know, again, you, you even get into churn and you start to look at. Your GRR and NRR and lifetime value and CAC and all these metrics that a lot of people would say, well, those are finance metrics. My goal is just more pipeline, but I, I, I would suspect as a, you know, chief growth officer, you really focus on where can we drive the most successful, sustainable, profitable growth Yeah.

[00:40:36] Matt Hummel: For the business. Because otherwise you’re not really doing your job. And I think. You know, the days of growth at all costs are behind us, by and large. Uh, and it’s really, you know, it’s, it’s gotta be a, you know, that strong emphasis on profitability. And if you’re, if you’re winning all the revenue, driving all the bookings in the world, but you’re bleeding 30, 40% of on the back end, then.

[00:40:57] Matt Hummel: You’re not really doing your job effectively. So [00:41:00] I think the, the winner in all of this though, John, is the customer, because you could argue that a lot of trust has been broken and, and I think as sellers, you know, and then, and I understand it’s the scrappy nature, have just focused on more and more and more revenue.

[00:41:13] Matt Hummel: And it’s because of the pressures often of that you’re in these monthly or quarterly cycles, you’ve got a number to hit and it’s not, nobody cares what you did last month or last quarter. It’s what have you done for me now? But I think it’s often at the expense of the customer, whether it’s broken promises or not the right fit or whatever the case is.

[00:41:29] Matt Hummel: And churn is. Churn is a strong indication generally of just wasn’t the right fit for the business. They didn’t demonstrate the value so. I think long story short, the customer is really benefiting from this and I think that’s a great thing for our industry. So, well, John, as you know, I like to talk to each of my guests a little bit, you know, more than just work.

[00:41:48] Matt Hummel: So would love the opportunity for the audience to get you to get to know you a little bit better personally. So at the top of the show, we talked about your go-to pick me up beverage, which is a [00:42:00] mango chili element, if I, if I’m getting that right. That’s

[00:42:02] John Eitel: right. Yep.

[00:42:03] Matt Hummel: Yep. Um, so. You just wrap up long workday you, you leave your home office, what do you need?

[00:42:11] Matt Hummel: What’s your go-to beverage? To wind down?

[00:42:14] John Eitel: Yeah. Tequila, sodas like my go-to or white wine. I think those are my kind of go-to drinks right now.

[00:42:20] Matt Hummel: Well, I know, I think for more than 10 years now, you’ve been paddle boarding on Lake Austin to raise money and awareness for the Flatwater Foundation. Would you mind sharing more about that?

[00:42:29] John Eitel: Yeah, thanks for, uh, yeah, bringing that up. It’s a cause that’s like near and dear to my heart. The shortest version of it is, it’s actually a, uh, foundation and a cause that I, you know, have a lot of passion for flat water, uh, impacts families, you know, you know, that are going through a cancer diagnosis. Uh, my mother’s a breast cancer survivor.

[00:42:47] John Eitel: I’ve lost my, my grandmother to pancreatic cancer. So I’ve, you know, been touched by it as everybody has, so to say. It’s, you know, hard to find someone who hasn’t been, you know, touched by cancer. One of the things that I really love about flat water [00:43:00] is that we do some really kind of big, you know, kind of physical challenging things, but it’s all about really at the end of the day, raising money for these families.

[00:43:07] John Eitel: And, you know, what makes them unique is that they, you know, have said that cancer is one of the, you know, is the most, you know, I would say, uh, fundraised, you know, cause out there, but it’s usually channeled at the, the patient and the cure. And so often the family and the folks that surround the diagnosis are, are left out of this.

[00:43:25] John Eitel: And so. You know, they took a different approach and just a unique approach in saying that because that is covered and everybody’s really putting a lot of energy and effort there. We wanna do something different. And so the money we raise actually goes to providing mental health services to families impacted by a cancer diagnosis.

[00:43:40] John Eitel: So, spouse, child, you know, you name it. Anybody who, uh, you know is going through this, even the patient gets access to free mental health services. It means that they can. Send an email and get connected with a therapist, and it’s all covered by our work there. And so we raise, usually it’s about a million and a half every year, we paddle [00:44:00] 21 miles, uh, which is damned a dam on one of our, our lakes, our lakes or rivers here in Austin.

[00:44:06] John Eitel: So, uh, you know, the river has, you know, a dam at the beginning and a dam at the end. And so we paddle from one end to the other. It’s, you know, 21 miles on a standup paddle board. The event’s called, damn That Cancer. And you know, the fundraising is all kind of tied around that kind of, you know, major movement and getting 200 people out there on paddle boards, you know, doing this.

[00:44:25] John Eitel: It’s definitely, I always get the question of like, I paddle boarded once, you know, for an hour maybe on vacation. Like how long does it take to do 21 miles? It’s a full day. So we started, you know, 7:00 AM Wow. We finish at about five o’clock. So it’s uh, it’s a solid day’s work on a paddle board and, uh. You know, you’re paddling with, you know, people that have lost loved ones to cancer.

[00:44:45] John Eitel: You’re paddling with people that may have just, you know, beat a diagnosis or going through treatments and diagnosis. Uh, so just really interesting people that it attracts and draws and I really, you know, love the impact that it’s able to provide.

[00:44:57] Matt Hummel: That’s awesome. Well, we’ll make sure to put, uh, a link to the, [00:45:00] the Flat Water Foundation in the show notes.

[00:45:01] Matt Hummel: So I appreciate you sharing that and it sounds like such a great cause and also sounds like a really, really difficult core workout.

[00:45:09] John Eitel: It is. Hardest thing I’ll do every year and yet, yet the most fulfilling at the same time, which is what keeps bringing me, keeps bring, keeps bringing me back.

[00:45:17] Matt Hummel: Ah, well that’s awesome.

[00:45:18] Matt Hummel: Well. Last question for you. So we’re recording this episode in early December, and I believe the final, well, the final, before the final college playoff, uh, football rankings just came out. And despite arguably the toughest, and by the way I’m saying this not as a Texas fan. Yeah, yeah. So hear me out. I, I would still say arguably you had the toughest strength of schedule and you just came off a win against the third ranked.

[00:45:44] Matt Hummel: Aggies, the Longhorns are still on the outside looking in. What, what gives

[00:45:50] John Eitel: I, I, I have stopped watching this one. And, you know, the universe will do what it does, but I think I, I don’t think we make it in, I, uh, yeah. I’m not gonna go full Sark [00:46:00] on this and make the argument of the case. And I think you can, but you know, ultimately, you know, the, the rules are the rules and there’s a lot of, you know, teams out there that will.

[00:46:09] John Eitel: Uh, you know, make the case just as equally as ours. But, uh, you know, it’s been a fun season too. I will say it has, uh, you know, I am a Longhorn. My wife’s a longhorn. Our oldest son is in Aggie. So, uh, we had a lot of fun this past weekend, you know, oh, it dad bringing a bunch of friends into town. So like, I’m, I’m, you know, at least pleased with the season and, uh, you know, had fun with the matchup and, you know, I think beating, uh, you know, and Arkansas and Oklahoma in a season, like, I think, you know, you can’t, you can’t argue with that.

[00:46:38] John Eitel: Uh, so I think we should still feel good about it and, you know, any, any way it goes, I think next year, you know, will hopefully be a better year for us.

[00:46:46] Matt Hummel: Well look, and I think Archie Manning found his rhythm, you know, early season it, you just, you didn’t know what, what to expect. It was painful to watch.

[00:46:54] Matt Hummel: Yeah.

[00:46:55] John Eitel: So it feels good standing on eye note, you know, if this is the end.

[00:46:59] Matt Hummel: [00:47:00] Well, absolutely. Well, my dad’s a Longhorn. My brother’s an Aggie. My mom was a Baylor Bear. I know the Big 12 is not really a thing as it once was, but I appreciate all of the rivalries. So, John, this has been an amazing conversation. I, I really appreciate you taking the time outta your busy schedule.

[00:47:15] Matt Hummel: I know our listeners are gonna get a ton out of it and it’s just great to reconnect. So thank you again.

[00:47:19] John Eitel: Yeah, likewise Matt. Fun to have the conversation, you know, always enjoy, uh, you know, helping bridge the gap as well, you know, so hopefully there was some insight that was shared that, you know, may help others that are going through different situations or as they’re trying to unlock things with their teams.

[00:47:35] Matt Hummel: Thanks again to John for joining us on today’s episode of The Pipeline Brew. I hope you all enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Please leave me a comment with your thoughts and make sure you subscribe to the show so you’ll never miss an episode. Once again, I’m Matt Hummel. And I’ll see you next time.