Brewing Success with Rick Nendza: Redefining Product Marketing as the Connective Tissue of Growth

Product marketing often operates behind the scenes, but is it actually the most important growth lever in your organization? Rick Nendza, longtime B2B tech marketing leader believes it might be. On this episode of Pipeline Brew, he breaks down what product marketing really is and why its role as the connective tissue across departments has never been more critical.

Matt and Rick unpack the biggest misconceptions about PMM, how to measure impact without getting “KPI’d to death,” and why internal adoption of messaging and enablement content is just as important as external performance metrics. Drawing on decades of experience and multiple roles where Rick was the first PMM hire, he shares practical advice for building the function from the ground up and navigating blurred lines across organizations.

You’ll also hear what Rick means when he refers to AI as a “super-eager intern,” how content strategy is shifting as search continues to evolve, and why strong messaging and positioning remain foundational in modern B2B. If you’re a marketing leader trying to align teams, prove out ROI, or take your GTM to the next level, this episode delivers thoughtful, tactical insights you can put to work immediately. 

Rick Nendza has over 25 years of experience in product and content marketing in the B2B tech space. He currently has a contract role with Forrester, researching and writing Total Economic Impact (TEI) reports for the analyst firm’s clients – and is a fractional product and content marketing consultant “doer” for tech GTM teams.

Rick’s experience has specialized in SaaS product marketing in startup/scale out environments. In 20+ years at TechTarget, he was a key member of the team that launched Priority Engine, the publisher’s flagship SaaS platform. He also delivered content audits for tech customers – combining proprietary data with observed best practices to advise on demand gen content strategy. Since then, he’s initiated the product marketing function at two companies, working closely with demand gen teams in developing positioning and content for SaaS product launches.

“Product marketing is the connective tissue between the executive level, sales, marketing, customer success and product. Being naturally collaborative is one thing, but you sort of have to be super focused in terms of how you’re gonna get folks from around the organization to collaborate and to agree on things, and be really mindful and methodical on how you approach that from the start.”

“The way that product marketing is measured is ultimately going to be on pipeline and sales, right? But I think that there’s two extremes that I’ve seen. One is: You’re gauged on how the company is doing and you know, you’re not the CEO, so it’s not granular enough to give a fair assessment of what you’re doing. On the other side, the product marketing function can be KPI’d to death.”

“If you’ve got messaging and positioning and you’ve got AI tools, the key really goes back to create the best content. Step back and say the way that content is being found is changing, so let’s just refocus on creating the best content and stuff that’s interesting and sounds different from things that your competitors are saying and something that somebody might find. Whether it’s posted on social or on your website, or a sales rep is using it, have it be something that everybody is excited about sending.”

00:00 Episode start

02:00 Rick’s background and career journey

05:00 Product marketing as the connective tissue

08:45 Common misconceptions about PMM

12:30 Measuring impact with healthy KPIs 

15:00 Sales enablement and internal adoption

19:45 Advice for the first product marketer

22:00 Blurred lines across marketing roles

27:00 AI as a “super eager intern”

33:00 Content strategy in the age of AI search

36:45 What’s on tap for Rick Nendza

[00:00:00] Matt Hummel: Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Pipeline Brew, the podcast that meets at the intersection of people and pipeline. We’re bringing you fun yet insightful conversations where you’ll not only hear from marketing experts, but also get to know them as well.

[00:00:21] Matt Hummel: Hey everyone. Today I’m super excited to be joined by Rick Menza. Rick is, believe it or not, our very first product marketer to join us on the show. Currently doing some work with Forrester. Rick spent the majority of his career in the demand Gen space. Today we’re gonna focus on. Rick’s view of the PMM role and what it takes to succeed.

[00:00:40] Matt Hummel: How can you foster collaboration in your marketing org amidst a trend of blurred lines and where a healthy amount of AI fits into the picture? With that, Rick, welcome to the show. How are you?

[00:00:52] Rick Nendza: Thanks, Matt. I’m doing great. I’m excited. Excited to be on.

[00:00:55] Matt Hummel: Love it. As you know, we like to start off each episode with a little icebreaker to get the [00:01:00] ball rolling.

[00:01:00] Matt Hummel: So Rick, what is your go-to beverage when you need a little pick me up.

[00:01:05] Rick Nendza: So I shouldn’t have listened to any of the previous broadcast. It’s very intimidating, all the cool stuff that people drink. But I am, I am a boring, hot, black coffee guy. And being in Massachusetts, the old Dunking Donuts on, on every corner kind of thing.

[00:01:20] Rick Nendza: So, um, I know you’re. You’re a serious coffee connoisseur, but I’m plain old. Black coffee and a lot of water.

[00:01:26] Matt Hummel: Well, you know what? As a northeasterner, I appreciate that you didn’t say iced coffee because I think you may be the first guy up there that I know other than Tom Click who, who’s a good buddy of yours, who drinks hot coffee the way it should be consumed.

[00:01:40] Matt Hummel: So thank you, Elise, for that. Well. Before we talk about what you’re up to today, I’d love for you to tell the audience a little bit about yourself, your passions and your background.

[00:01:50] Rick Nendza: Great. Yeah, so I think the headline personally is that, you know, I’m a girl dad. I’ve got married here in Massachusetts, have two daughters.

[00:01:59] Rick Nendza: They’re fifth [00:02:00] grade and third grade. And you know, our, our lives sort of revolve around them into all the sports and dancing and, you know, lacrosse and soccer. That’s sort of the headline. I, they’re sort of following our footsteps with their mom and I, you know, been into sports big time. You know, I played rec league basketball way too long, and

[00:02:19] Matt Hummel: I can, I can feel it in my knees every day.

[00:02:21] Rick Nendza: Yeah. But yeah, so they’re, they, you know, they’re sort of central to our, our lives. And then professionally, I’ve been in B2B Tech marketing for, you know, 25 ish years. I spent a long time in tech publishing and the, you know, in the demand space. And over the past several years I’ve transitioned into product marketing specifically for SaaS products.

[00:02:43] Rick Nendza: You know, when I think about what I’ve been able to do, I’ve been lucky in that I’ve been the first product marketing hire a lot of times in organizations. So I’m gonna be able to sort of build the function from the ground up and learn every aspect of it. So it’s been really cool. And then as you mentioned, I’m doing work [00:03:00] with Forrester right now.

[00:03:00] Rick Nendza: It’s a contract. Gig and I’m working with their customers to sort of to, you know, work on total economic impact reports, which is, you know, a yeah, top of the funnel piece of content that Forrester creates. So it’s been really cool to sort of be in the gig economy and be contracting. Uh, I’m also doing some.

[00:03:19] Rick Nendza: So fractional stuff on the side as well, doing product marketing work with a few clients. So it’s been a fun change.

[00:03:25] Matt Hummel: That’s awesome. Well, you mentioned you’ve got two daughters, third and fifth grade, pretty sure. You also grew up with four sisters and you’ve got a a girl dog too. Am I right?

[00:03:34] Rick Nendza: That’s right.

[00:03:35] Rick Nendza: There is no shortage of female influence in my, in my life. There are no boys anywhere.

[00:03:41] Matt Hummel: Well, I appreciate that. I have two boys. I have a, a boy dog and a boy Catt. Who’s staring evilly at me, as most cats do. But my brother has a couple daughters, and part of me is thankful I don’t have any daughters because when I’m with them, I mean, whatever they want, they can have.

[00:03:59] Matt Hummel: I [00:04:00] mean, if they have me wrapped so tightly around their finger, I don’t know what I’d do if I was a girl. Dad.

[00:04:04] Rick Nendza: Yep. Yep. That, that’s my life.

[00:04:08] Matt Hummel: Hey, that keeps you, keeps you hungry, keeps you working right. Exactly. Keeps you motivated.

[00:04:13] Rick Nendza: Yep.

[00:04:13] Matt Hummel: That’s awesome. Well, appreciate the background. You know, you’ve got a great background.

[00:04:18] Matt Hummel: You’ve spent a tremendous amount of time in this space. You understand it well. I’d love to hear about some of the big lessons you’ve learned along your journey. Any kind of aha moments you’ve had.

[00:04:27] Rick Nendza: Yeah, so it’s funny, it probably wasn’t a moment, but sort of a gradual realization. Something that I probably should have, should have learned way long ago.

[00:04:36] Rick Nendza: And I know that, uh, most of the listeners to your podcast are on sort of the demand gen side of the world, so work with product marketers and, um, you know, being in product marketing, it’s always sort of been the work that drives what you do. So being able to create. Campaigns and work around product releases and, you know, long form content, all the work that’s involved in it [00:05:00] is sort of what drives you to want to be in this.

[00:05:02] Rick Nendza: And you know, there’s a saying that, you know, product marketing is the connective tissue between, you know, sort of the executive level and sales and marketing, um, customer success and, you know, product. Of course. I think that I was, I’ve slow to realize, or slow to really emphasize the fact that. Being that connected tissue is the most important part.

[00:05:25] Rick Nendza: Mm-hmm. Like, you know, being naturally collaborative is one thing, but you sort of have to be super focused in terms of how you’re gonna get folks from around the organization to collaborate and to agree on things, and to be really sort of mindful and methodical on how you, how you approach that from the start.

[00:05:41] Rick Nendza: You know? So that’s sort of the, the thing that, um, I think about that as a marketer, you’re sort of drawn to the profession because you like to write and you like to create, you like to be strategic. But it’s really that sort of collaborative part that you can’t consider an afterthought. You have to say, here’s the main function of the

[00:05:59] Matt Hummel: job and [00:06:00] here’s the way that I need to go about it.

[00:06:01] Matt Hummel: That makes sense. It’s interesting, you know, a lot of marketers struggle with collaboration and other marketers may be good at collaborating, but struggle to sort of have this decisioning framework. And I think a lot of times that can be an organizational challenge. But as an example, we are in the process of going through a rebranding exercise internally, and I’m leading it.

[00:06:22] Matt Hummel: We don’t have sort of a head of brand, so I’m taking that role on, but I share the designs, the creative with my team. I get everyone has a different opinion.

[00:06:31] Rick Nendza: Yeah.

[00:06:31] Matt Hummel: And while I appreciate, you know, their input and they appreciate being part of the process, it’s sort of that, okay, what do I do with it?

[00:06:38] Matt Hummel: Thankfully, I’ve had some folks earlier in my career who will say, you know, who taught me the hard way of you’re not gonna make everyone happy and you need to be okay with that, but you still need to involve everyone to make sure you’ve heard their voice, take their input, but ultimately. To say it nicely, you’re the one whose neck is on the line, not there, so choose wisely.

[00:06:54] Matt Hummel: Right. In the words of, uh, Indiana Jones. Right,

right.

[00:06:59] Matt Hummel: Well, that’s awesome. [00:07:00] Well, you mentioned it a minute ago that you’ve been doing some fractional work for Forrester. Mm-hmm. What’s that been like? It sounds like. This is a newer thing for you as you’ve been kind of a long-term corporate guy.

[00:07:10] Rick Nendza: Yeah. I’ve always had a full-time job and it’s been great.

[00:07:14] Rick Nendza: It’s been, you know, a revelation in terms of how it’s come about. I think that like a lot of people, my reluctance has always been. The fact that you have to sing for your supper. Like you, you know, you’re always looking for the next thing

[00:07:27] Matt Hummel: Yeah.

[00:07:27] Rick Nendza: That you’re gonna be doing. And there’s a, there’s a challenge in that.

[00:07:30] Rick Nendza: But the thing that I’ve realized, you know, if you, if you bounce around LinkedIn and you look at people that do what you and I do, Matt, a lot of people are at full-time jobs for, you know, 18 months or two years or three years. So it’s kind of a, it’s kind of a gig. Even if you’re in the full, in a full-time role.

[00:07:47] Rick Nendza: So, um, that’s a

[00:07:48] Matt Hummel: great point.

[00:07:49] Rick Nendza: You know, since that element’s already there, it’s like, why not just go out and, and try to find these things on your own? So it’s been, you know, being fractional is, it’s really cool in [00:08:00] terms of being able to dig deep into individual companies, go to market strategies and their content.

[00:08:05] Rick Nendza: Then, you know, do your project and then dig deep into another one. So it’s, you know, you’re sort of always doing new sort of important things, and then you’re removed from all the organizational things that go along with a full-time job that you don’t want to be involved in anyway. So it’s been, it’s been really cool so far.

[00:08:23] Rick Nendza: So like, the flexibility’s great if you have a significant other that has a job with health insurance, that also is a, you know, that’s a, a tactical consideration that you have to think about.

[00:08:34] Matt Hummel: Yeah, it, yeah, we could talk healthcare, but we’ll save that for a, we’ll save that for an adult beverage.

[00:08:41] Rick Nendza: Good idea.

[00:08:41] Matt Hummel: No, that’s awesome. Well, as our first PMM on the show, you have the floor to describe how you view the role of product marketing, its core responsibilities. And you know, kind of in the same vein, are there any big misconceptions that you want to clear up for our listeners?

[00:08:56] Rick Nendza: Yeah, well I think that that, um.

[00:08:59] Rick Nendza: Notion I had [00:09:00] before where the connective tissue and you’re sort of working with product, um, working with the other groups to be able to decide what’s gonna be happening with your product and how you go to market with it. You know, there’s a lot that goes along with that and every company, frankly, does it a little bit differently from the way that I’ve sort of experienced things.

[00:09:17] Rick Nendza: One big misconception is that anybody within the organization, you’re going to even knows what product marketing is like. Everyone sort of has. Subjective opinions on what you should be doing, but it can be very different from company to company and you know, it’s important to avoid being sort of a catchall.

[00:09:36] Rick Nendza: I think, you know, Matt, you and I probably have fairly similar personalities. Like I’ve always been like, uh, hey, can we do this? I’m like, yeah, you know, we’ll take it on. So anything that comes up, you want to be sort of a team player and be able to take things on and get excited about jobs. But you know, I think a big part of it is.

[00:09:54] Rick Nendza: Defining lines with your colleagues in different departments to be able to manage [00:10:00] projects, keep people informed, and or keep that level set with internal communication. So I think, you know, the misconceptions start with what it is you actually do. So the more that you can do to set the tone on that and communicate the, the better off you are.

[00:10:14] Matt Hummel: That makes sense. I had a woman earlier in my career, she was doing some consulting for the company I was with at the time.

[00:10:21] Rick Nendza: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:21] Matt Hummel: And she said, you know, tell me about your background. What, what areas of marketing do you have experience in? And I said, I did brand early in my career. The last, you know, while I’ve done more of the demand side, she goes, what about product marketing?

[00:10:32] Matt Hummel: I said, no. She goes, oh, no problem. Only the most important part of marketing you have no experience in. And at the time I didn’t really understand what she meant because I’ve. I had plenty of misconceptions of product marketing. I thought you guys were just the ones who. Wrote the brochures on the products.

[00:10:48] Matt Hummel: Right. Not really realizing, kind of in the same way I view content as the heartbeat of a, of an organization, product marketing, and I’m not giving it the full value, but you guys are the strategic, you’re the [00:11:00] tip of the spear, but obviously so much more. And I, at the time, I really didn’t understand sort of the strategic role that that product marketing when done correctly of course mm-hmm.

[00:11:09] Matt Hummel: Plays from a true go-to market strategy from a. Future perspective of where we should be going, where we should be investing, so on and so forth. So,

[00:11:17] Rick Nendza: right. And it’s funny, you do see a lot of organizations that still sort of have that old mindset of product marketing is like creating decks and Yep. One pagers and that sort of thing, and not, like you said, the tip of the spear and And leading.

[00:11:30] Rick Nendza: Leading the strategic charge on things.

[00:11:33] Matt Hummel: Oh yeah. I mean, obviously one product marketer where you’ve been that guy before, you were the first product marketing hire before, but there’s so many things you can do from. To your point, go to market strategy, but pricing and packaging and positioning and mm-hmm.

[00:11:48] Matt Hummel: Building in partnership with the product manager, product group, the roadmap, being out on the, on the road or on zooms, talking to customers, getting those insights. There’s so much to the role and I, I have grown to [00:12:00] appreciate it so much more As I’ve, as I’ve spent time with product marketers like yourself who have really helped me sort of understand the significance of the role.

[00:12:08] Matt Hummel: It’s probably the most important growth lever within. Certainly within marketing, but perhaps within an organization. So I have a ton of respect for what you do.

[00:12:16] Rick Nendza: Yeah. Well it’s good. Good to hear.

[00:12:18] Matt Hummel: Well, no, and but with that said, I mean, I think product marketing can at times feel less tangible compared to other functions like say, demand who have more of that direct attribution model or it’s easier to measure ROI.

[00:12:33] Matt Hummel: How do you think about product marketing as it relates to demonstrating that value in ROI?

[00:12:37] Rick Nendza: That’s a good question. ’cause like you said, like. A seller, you’ve got your number to hit the number of accounts that you need to, to work, so at the end of the year, you know if you’re successful or not. So those, you know, there’s, there’s, there are roles that are way more quantifiable roles and functions.

[00:12:54] Rick Nendza: So, you know, the way that product marketing has measured ultimately is gonna be on [00:13:00] pipeline in sales. Right? Like, you know, but I think that there’s sort of two, two extremes that I’ve seen. One is. That’s it. Like you’re gauged on sort of how the company is doing and you know, you’re not the CEO, so it’s not granular enough to give a fair assessment of what you’re doing.

[00:13:16] Rick Nendza: So it’s sort of like, what pipeline are we creating? What are we getting done? On the other side, the product marketing function can be KPI to death. Like you can be measured in terms of projects getting done, and it can be a very fluid situation. So if you have, you know, a one year plan with KPIs and it, it depends on.

[00:13:36] Rick Nendza: Certain deliverables being met at certain times and the scope of product releases and that sort of thing. You can get too granular in terms of how you’re measuring the way things go. So, you know, sort of in the middle there’s a few things that you can think about in terms of how you’re gonna be measured, and one is, seems obvious, but set goals with every project.

[00:13:57] Rick Nendza: So whether it’s a product release or a [00:14:00] campaign or you know, a big content project. Have goals that are quantifiable and non-quantifiable. So it might be for a big report, how many eyes do you expect to see on it and that sort of thing. But like have, define things granularly that, that will help tell the story.

[00:14:17] Rick Nendza: So you’re not viewed as sort of a catchall and everything should be Should be perfect.

[00:14:21] Matt Hummel: Yeah.

[00:14:22] Rick Nendza: You know, and then looking for, you know, ultimately you are sort of responsible for pipeline and company direction. So over the course of time, if you define goals on things like. You’re starting a product marketing role and the immediate issues are the sales cycle is taking too long, or ARR is too low, or the renewal percentage or growth is whatever those things are.

[00:14:46] Rick Nendza: Measure those things over time because you’re having a a big impact so you can point to those things. That’s the macro side. And then sort of on the micro side, an important thing, and it sounds stupid, but. [00:15:00] Just measuring what’s being used that you’re, they’re creating, like there’s, yeah. This, this element of you go in and all this stuff’s being created and, and if people that need it can’t find it, it’s more common than you would think.

[00:15:13] Rick Nendza: So, um, you know, as you’re creating pitch decks and content to support rollouts and, you know, nurture message, whatever it is. Measure even internally, how much and how often people are actually using this stuff. And that’s gonna be an important metric because you could create the best sort of sales playbook in the world, and then that gets put on the internal drive and just collects virtual dust.

[00:15:37] Rick Nendza: Like that’s, that’s, that’s not super helpful. So that’s, or some like, sort of things that sound almost silly in terms of the, how you can measure. What you’re doing, and then the performance of the comp of the company becomes your performance.

[00:15:49] Matt Hummel: Well, it’s, to me, it’s, I see a parallel to, you know, what’s one of the greatest indicators of churn or, or retention.

[00:15:57] Matt Hummel: It’s product adoption. It’s [00:16:00] usage. Mm-hmm. And I see a, a strong parallel to what you’re describing. So to me, that’s not silly. Because if folks aren’t using it, then they’re not gonna get value, and you’re not doing things because they’re fun to do, or because it was what you felt like you just woke up and decided to do.

[00:16:16] Matt Hummel: But because you knew you needed to move the needle in a certain area and you felt this was the right lever to pull to drive the results. And so if it’s not being utilized, and I think Rick, that’s part of the challenge I’ve seen with, with the product marketing function, is you also have, you’re almost the man behind the curtain a lot of times because mm-hmm.

[00:16:33] Matt Hummel: You’re out, you’re at your desk or wherever, just cranking away work. You’re building decks, you’re, you’re doing strategic work. At the same time, you also have to get inputs from customers, from prospects, from the market. You’re doing research, but then there’s a whole sales enablement, and maybe that’s not the right word, but there’s certainly an element of engaging sales, enabling sales, making sure that the adoption is there.

[00:16:55] Matt Hummel: And so to me, that’s another intricacy and unique challenge that you [00:17:00] have, is that you really do play. You’re not the guy who’s just behind the scenes, but that is a huge part of your job. But you’re the guy who also, depending on the size of your organization, what kind of support you have around you. You know, you’re gonna end up having to be in front of sales a lot, pushing them.

[00:17:15] Matt Hummel: Mm-hmm. Really training them, so on and so forth.

[00:17:17] Rick Nendza: Yeah. And I’m surprised we haven’t talked about sales enablement until whatever minute we’re in now, but that I, I’ve always viewed that as a huge part of, of the role. And there’s, you know, the sales enablement function itself can be. Sort of setting up the framework of trainings and you know, meetings and education and that sort of thing.

[00:17:39] Rick Nendza: And then product marketing sort of drives what the education is, you know, what’s actually being taught. So I, you know, one thing that I find gratifying is when you get the sales team to do something that they didn’t want to do and they like it, you know, so, you know, role playing. It’s doing different, different sort of educational things [00:18:00] where, you know, their reaction is, I just wanna talk to my customers.

[00:18:02] Rick Nendza: I don’t want to deal with this. Right. Um, but then it ends up being you do it, you know, you plan it out well. Um, you think about what you’re doing and then you see them say, and they’ll come out of it and say, I actually learned something from that, and it was fruitful. So, um, you, it

[00:18:17] Matt Hummel: wasn’t all that bad.

[00:18:18] Rick Nendza: Right,

[00:18:18] Matt Hummel: right. Yeah. It’s so true. I liken it to. I swear we live in Colorado and every time that we want to go on a hike, one of my kids in particular is like, uh, I don’t want to go on a hike, dad. That’s all we do. And we’re like, well, we live in Colorado. Suck it up and right. And so, you know, we more or less drag him to the car.

[00:18:38] Matt Hummel: He gets in, we get to the mountain five minutes, and he is like, this is the best time ever. I’m so glad we did this. And like. Yeah. That’s why we’re doing it.

[00:18:48] Rick Nendza: And marketing and positioning. You just reminded me of when the girls were younger, they had the same reaction. I don’t wanna go on a hike. And then so you’d say, Hey, you know, and this is when they were y [00:19:00] way younger, but say, who wants to go on an adventure looking for fairies?

[00:19:03] Rick Nendza: Yes. And they’re like, what? So it’s, it’s, it’s positioning and messaging.

[00:19:06] Matt Hummel: So Well said. So well said. Our CEO puts it in the, the best way possible. He goes. Would you rather have cold dead fish or would you rather have sushi? Right? Yes. Great, great point. So positioning goes a long way. Well. One last question on this sort of general topic.

[00:19:26] Matt Hummel: For other product marketers out there who might be the first one in their org, what advice do you have for them? What do you wish you would’ve known before you took on your first product marketing role? Not just first product marketing role, but first product marketer at a company role?

[00:19:42] Rick Nendza: Yeah. Yeah. So I talked about a little bit before.

[00:19:46] Rick Nendza: In terms of being more methodical about communicating out in terms of what you’re doing, and a practical application of that is I had one manager, and it’s not unique to him to have a, a [00:20:00] walking deck, which is basically, you know, one deck that anybody can access at any time that basically says, you know, has the latest positioning.

[00:20:09] Rick Nendza: It has basically the latest work and the projects that you have going on at a very high level, and then. Whoever’s viewing it can take a deeper dive in terms of whatever they wanna see. But I think in this one example, the deck started with like, what is product marketing? So it was a level set that was repeated all the time.

[00:20:28] Rick Nendza: And I think what that did was give you sort of that ability to be repetitive with the peers that you’re working with and management and that sort of thing in terms of what you’re working on. And then. The thing that we always, so as we’re recording this, it’s, you know, Friday afternoon, we’ve all gotten the three 30 on Friday.

[00:20:47] Rick Nendza: Hey, where does this stand from someone? And then you’re going through spreadsheets and decks and content and you know, all of those things. But if you have one sort of [00:21:00] proactive place that say, oh, well, you know. Refer to this thing that I send out to you every Friday and here’s where it stands and let me know if you have questions about that.

[00:21:08] Rick Nendza: So it’s, it’s really about being sort of methodical and proactive about your communication, not just being a good collaborator, but starting with square one to say like, here’s how we’re gonna communicate, here’s how you’re gonna know what I have going on. ’cause we all work really, really hard. So it’s, you know, a matter of being able to communicate and have people be on the same page.

[00:21:32] Rick Nendza: At any given time. So I think that’s, you know, and you know, if I go back to full-time work, I’m gonna sort of start with that, um, notion of, you know, practice where I’m preaching here.

[00:21:43] Matt Hummel: Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Well, this is a good segue, just the topic of collaboration into what I’m seeing a lot of in product marketing and in orgs is this concept of blur lines between functions.

[00:21:55] Matt Hummel: And I feel like product marketing. Can sit kind of in the middle of these [00:22:00] blurry lines. And on one hand, if done correctly, collaboration is incredibly effective. If it’s not done correctly. It’s sort of the who’s on first. A colleague of mine used to say, when you call 9 1 1, somebody needs to know whose responsibility is to answer the phone and Right.

[00:22:15] Matt Hummel: And I love that. And you know, it seems like we’ve seen a progressive blurring of lines in marketing roles. When I think about product marketing, I often think about. I’m not saying this is my opinion, but what I’ve seen challenges that other organizations have faced is are they responsible for brand messaging?

[00:22:31] Matt Hummel: Is that positioning? Are they responsible for content? Are they responsible for go to market strategy or is that demand gen? And so, you know, why do you think these blurring of lines are happening and, and should we be resisting this trend? Or is, is this something that we need to get on board with and figure out how to work within?

[00:22:49] Rick Nendza: Y Yeah, I think it’s probably the latter. Um, like if he can follow best practices, you know, and that sort of thing. How other companies have approached it before. I, I think at the end of the [00:23:00] day, there’s a lot of overlapping skill sets when you talk about a growth marketer, a demand marketer, you know, content creator and that sort of thing.

[00:23:09] Rick Nendza: So, you know, all those places people can write, people, you know. Want to do all the things that are marketing. So part of it, like everything else, is communication in terms of those project plans and who’s going to, who’s gonna do what. And I think a way to sort of, you know, an important part of product marketing is starting with a really strong messaging and positioning document.

[00:23:36] Rick Nendza: And it’s something, you know, it’s it’s core to what we do, and it would be part of that walking deck that I talked about before. And it’s, it’s really, um, it’s something, it’s the songbook that everybody can sing from, right? So you, you start with what the messaging is. You vet it both, you know, internally and externally.

[00:23:54] Rick Nendza: Data wins the tie. If you’re debating how to position something or what markets to go after [00:24:00] or. What verticals or what personas and that sort of thing. But I think when you have that centralized core of positioning that anybody can act off of, it makes the blurred lines less frustrating because, you know, sales enablement can create bound messaging plan because they have all, you know, they can use AI to even help, but they have all the sort of core information.

[00:24:24] Rick Nendza: So I think there’s, you know, if you have that one centralized. Message that everybody can work from. And then you communicate on who’s gonna do what.

[00:24:33] Matt Hummel: Yep.

[00:24:34] Rick Nendza: Tactically, it makes a lot of that pain go away. And then, you know, it potentially, there’s times, especially when you’re working with a lot of junior people, it opens people up to things that maybe they didn’t know that they were good at.

[00:24:46] Rick Nendza: You know, they, you know, there was an example of someone I worked with that we said, Hey, can you, it’s really hard to get case studies because they all get stuck with. At some point along the way with being written or [00:25:00] legal or interviewing customers or quantifying things. And it was like, can you just own this?

[00:25:05] Rick Nendza: And she owned it and did a great job and it was like, you know, a great resume thing. So. So part of it is giving people a little bit of flexibility so you don’t get so rigid in terms of like, that’s my job. That’s not your job. Which is, you know, totally not productive.

[00:25:20] Matt Hummel: No, that makes sense. It’s, I kind of liken it to modern NBA basketball teams where, you know, back in the day, I know you’re a Celtics fan, which I have no problem with.

[00:25:32] Matt Hummel: I, I’m a, I’m a Dallas guy personally. I, I live in Colorado, but just moved here a couple years ago. But, you know, you think about modern basketball, it’s no longer. You’ve gotta have a point guard, a shooting guard, a small Ford Power Forward Center. You know, last year the Celtics won the championship in large part because their seven foot guy was out shooting threes.

[00:25:49] Matt Hummel: Right. And you look at the Mavericks this year, their rookie Cooper flag, I think 6 10, 6 11. Mm-hmm. He might be their point guard this season. Right. But it’s this idea of you [00:26:00] just want the best guys on the team you put together, but they have to know how to work together.

[00:26:05] Rick Nendza: The

[00:26:05] Matt Hummel: goal is. To get more points than the other team.

[00:26:08] Matt Hummel: That’s how you win the game. Right? I know there’s X’s and O’s, same in business, but at the end of the day, you know, all marketing is performance marketing. We’re all here to grow the business. We have different skill sets, but I like where you’re going with this, where it’s okay to have blur lines because if you try to keep people in a box, you may not get sort of that full diversity of thinking and experience.

[00:26:28] Matt Hummel: And to your earlier point too, which I really liked, it’s people might stumble on things where they’re like, huh? I kind of like doing that. I didn’t realize that was fun. And maybe that gives them that extra reason to stay because they don’t sort of burn out on, I’m not, I’m not growing, I’m not learning anything new, which I think people forget so often.

[00:26:44] Matt Hummel: That’s such an important part of keeping employees engaged, is just making them better at what they’re doing. Giving them an opportunity to grow, not just, you know, pay is great, but give them a chance to grow and learn, which I always appreciate.

[00:26:58] Rick Nendza: Yeah. Yeah. And not to take the. [00:27:00] Negative side of that, but, and to continue the basketball analogy, you don’t have, you don’t end up with somebody who’s five 10 saying, I’m the center and I’m, I’m gonna post up.

[00:27:10] Rick Nendza: You know, you, you can also learn things that people are not good at, that they should, they should move on from, so.

[00:27:16] Matt Hummel: That is true. I was tall until I wasn’t, and then I was no longer effective at being the guy down in the post. Right. Well, I want to fast forward a little bit and talk about AI and where AI fits into the strategy.

[00:27:29] Matt Hummel: So I’m sure you’ve seen your role, your function evolve over the past few years, especially with the rise of AI and data playing a larger part of the role. What have you seen?

[00:27:42] Rick Nendza: So let me preface this by saying I am. Wholly on the side of product marketing and other marketing roles being improved by AI and not replaced by it.

[00:27:53] Rick Nendza: Like, it’s, it’s, yeah, run, we’re sort of at, we’re just scratching the surface in terms of what it can do to help. But [00:28:00] I sort of view the things that I see now as AI is almost like a super eager intern, you know, that’s, that’s incredibly efficient. Where you say, you know, write me a 17 part. Nurture stream with these connection points, and two seconds later you’ve got that nurture stream and then you look at it and you’re like, eh, like, it’s okay.

[00:28:24] Rick Nendza: But you know, and this is, you know, purely like gen gen ai, um

[00:28:27] Matt Hummel: Right.

[00:28:28] Rick Nendza: But, you know, so I think what I’ve seen is people being able to do functions that were hard, or I guess tasks that were hard to get to and hard to dedicate time to that are done. Super quickly and that, you know, that’s an example. It’s an example of it.

[00:28:44] Rick Nendza: A lot of things with writing and you’ll see, I’m sure you’re on the same sort of LinkedIn groups and that sort of thing where people talk about like you can tell when it’s AI that wrote something and I don’t, I don’t think you really can a lot of, a lot of times, but you really do have to have eyes on everything and think it [00:29:00] through and not just rely on AI to do things like it’s good examples are like.

[00:29:06] Rick Nendza: Having messaging and then, you know, having a bunch of information about different verticals or different personas and say, personalize this to that function and do it 15 different ways. And then you can sort of go through and pick and choose what you like. And then where I’ve seen and I wanna see more of is, I, I probably shouldn’t say this in terms of, you know, promoting myself, but project management.

[00:29:31] Rick Nendza: There’s never been the easiest part of the job for me. So, you know, collaborating and doing the work, but then, you know, the actual project management is such a refined skillset.

[00:29:41] Matt Hummel: It is.

[00:29:42] Rick Nendza: The more, the more sort of things that you can help with the parts of your job that either you can’t get to or are repetitive or difficult, then, you know, those are the key.

[00:29:53] Rick Nendza: So more, more AI in sort of project management and having, it’s like having a really good. [00:30:00] Project manager. Again, that’s super eager to be able to help with that stuff.

[00:30:04] Matt Hummel: That makes a ton of sense. I took a lot of notes as you were walking me through that, that section, because I like how you described Gen AI as kind of this eager intern because I love every time you prompt him or whatever it, he’s always like.

[00:30:20] Matt Hummel: Oh, that’s a great idea, Rick. Right. You know, you’re thinking on the right and you’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That to me that’s, I’ve never thought about it, but it’s like a very eager intern, like, oh yeah, boss, let me do this. But then they go do it right away. And I read this report recently that talked about how.

[00:30:35] Matt Hummel: Most people are prompting wrong because they’re being too nice. Like, Hey, would you please mind? Is it, if it’s okay with you, would you do this for me? And apparently there’s a 4% improvement rate. If you’re kind of rude to chat GPT, like, do this for me, or, this was bad, do it again. And you couldn’t talk to an intern that way because you’ll crush their hopes and dreams.

[00:30:55] Matt Hummel: But Chachi, PT or Gemini, just tell ’em, you know, right. Take out the emotion. [00:31:00] For guys like myself who don’t have daughters, keeping me grounded with my emotions. Chachi pt, and I get along really well. But then the last thing you said, the project management piece. I consider myself a decent project manager, but where I often struggle when I found value is, you know, I can manage a project, but I don’t always know the steps that are required.

[00:31:20] Matt Hummel: Right. And you know, it’s that whole start with the end in mind. And that’s one of the things that I’ve loved as I’ve started to use. You know, gen AI applications more is, it’s the, okay, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next? Mm-hmm. And then, you know, even when I ask what’s next, okay, can you break this out into a a six week plan for me?

[00:31:38] Rick Nendza: Mm-hmm. Right.

[00:31:39] Matt Hummel: And it does. And then from there it’s game on.

[00:31:42] Rick Nendza: Right. And to pile on that, when project plans become non-linear because something’s gone, made it go sideways or taken a step back and you need, need to reset. And that original. Whatever format you had is in that original plan is blown up. And then if you can have that [00:32:00] rebuilt in three seconds, um, that’s, you know, it’s a huge help.

[00:32:04] Matt Hummel: Yeah. Perfect. Well, with AI initiatives clearly increasing across enterprise organizations, how do you see it specifically improving the role of the PMM function and how it interacts with other functions as well?

[00:32:18] Rick Nendza: Yeah, so I think about this a lot in terms of. Content creation and content consumption. Like I think, you know, we talked a little bit about the different tactical things that you can do with AI in the job now in terms of your own internal agents that you might be able to build and that sort of thing.

[00:32:38] Rick Nendza: And then different tools that are cropping up. But I think about, um, you know, it’s so easy to create content now with ai. And the other thing that’s changing is the way that content is being consumed. Like I, you know. I was actually, I think it was a Forrester event the month that Gen AI came out. And the, you know, the [00:33:00] keynote speaker was talking about how he was looking for restaurants in Austin through ai, and we’re all sitting there like, really?

[00:33:07] Rick Nendza: You know, that you have Google for that,

[00:33:09] Matt Hummel: right?

[00:33:09] Rick Nendza: But all the, the change in terms of like the way SEO works, like we’re no longer beholden to the algorithms of Google as much as we once were. And so it sort of comes back to. If you’ve got messaging and positioning and you’ve got AI tools, the key really goes back to create the best content.

[00:33:30] Rick Nendza: The story that I have with this is there, you know, just a few years ago there was a content project that I was not leading but part of, and it was literally creating content that was for Google. Like, you know, it almost would be counterproductive if a human saw it. It’s like, why are you, why are you explaining to me what you know, whatever the technology was, why would you have a page on something so basic?

[00:33:57] Rick Nendza: Like, it’d almost be confusing [00:34:00] if someone found that content and you’re like, you know, what is this? But it was really just sort of luring Google to, you know, and trying to goose that algorithm a little bit. So I think you, I know if I’m actually expl answering your exact question, but just something that’s been on my mind in terms of ai, not just in terms of the creative side of the house, but being able to.

[00:34:20] Rick Nendza: Step back and say the way that content is being found is changing, so let’s just refocus on creating the best content and stuff that’s interesting and sounds different from things that your competitors are saying and something that somebody might find, whether it’s posted on social or on your website, or a sales rep is using it.

[00:34:38] Rick Nendza: Have it be something that everybody is excited about sending, has a perspective, has a point of view, and, um, that’s that’s gonna win the day. More than having a lot of content that you’re sort of writing for Google to see, you know? Yeah. So you’re, you’re nodding. You’re, you know, you know what I mean?

[00:34:56] Matt Hummel: No, I mean, you’re, you’re spot on.

[00:34:58] Matt Hummel: It is funny though, you [00:35:00] mentioned the Austin, somebody was chatt food. I, I’ve been to Austin a hundred times, probably a thousand times. The last time I went, probably for Forrester. I kid you not. I did the same thing and I did it though, because I’m always the Google guy. Usually just Google Maps. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:17] Matt Hummel: But I went in and I was like, I’m staying here. I’m trying to avoid eating foods that have too much sodium. For example, I don’t like this type of food. I do like these types of food. I prefer to walk, but willing to grab a scooter. What are your top five recommendations? And of course, as the eager intern does, he’s like, oh, I am.

[00:35:36] Matt Hummel: This is great. So much to work with, Matt. Thank you. Here’s five great restaurants you should consider. I hadn’t heard of any of the five, and I ended up going to one of them, which was awesome. And the food was great and. You know, it struck the right chord, but the world is really changing. We’re actually gonna have a, probably someone who, you know, well, Jenny Wagonheim on the show coming up soon.

[00:35:57] Matt Hummel: I’m sure your path’s crossed, but to, to really [00:36:00] talk about the shift that we’re seeing in content and how it’s being written with the understanding of how it’s being searched for and consumed. And so more to come on that topic. So I appreciate you seeding the, the conversation there.

[00:36:12] Rick Nendza: Yeah, I, I will say that Jenny had the.

[00:36:16] Rick Nendza: Unenviable task of convincing teams of professional journalists and writers to change the way that they write to suit SEO. Back in the day, it was not received well, but then once people started to see the results and see that it wasn’t actually impacting what you’re trying to say, it was just some nuance things.

[00:36:33] Rick Nendza: So she, we talk about collaborating, convincing people to do the right thing. She is, she’s a good source of that.

[00:36:40] Matt Hummel: Oh, that’s awesome. Well, good. Well, I want to transition to our last segment, which is called What’s On Tap. So what’s on tap for Rick? So at the top of the show we talked about your favorite pick me up beverage.

[00:36:51] Matt Hummel: Black coffee hot to be clear with a lot of water, which I agree. I am. Uh, I drink my hot coffee in the morning, [00:37:00] but then I’m like, you know, I’m, we’re not a video, but water all day. Um, yeah. Flip that question around. End of a long day, what’s your go-to wine, wind down beverage?

[00:37:09] Rick Nendza: Um, so I am a big, IPA fan, um, you know, being in New England.

[00:37:16] Rick Nendza: There’s so many, so many good options. It’s almost as a beer drinker, it’s almost like going to a wine shop now. It’s like there’ll be new IPAs popping up.

[00:37:24] Matt Hummel: Yeah.

[00:37:25] Rick Nendza: All over the place. And um, but it’s funny, I saw something recently saying that like, that that market is shifting. So it’s, you know, it’s saturated.

[00:37:35] Rick Nendza: What I like about it, having all this different variety and be able to try something out. Um, is actually working against, against the industry. There’s interesting, there’s so many, too many choices, many options. Yeah. And they talk about how um, like Gen Z is drinking less and tastes are changing and, and, um, ingredients are getting expensive.

[00:37:54] Rick Nendza: So it’s sort of like, I really enjoy it and I’ve been part of the. Part of the wave. And I, I hope [00:38:00] it doesn’t consolidate too too much. ’cause it’s

[00:38:01] Matt Hummel: Gen Z’s always messing everything up for us, Rick.

[00:38:04] Rick Nendza: I know. They’re the worst.

[00:38:08] Matt Hummel: Are you a treetop guy? Is isn’t that the, one of the big breweries out there?

[00:38:12] Rick Nendza: Yeah.

[00:38:12] Rick Nendza: Yeah. Treetop. Um, and it’s funny, it’s, it’s in Western Massachusetts and then there’s one on Cape Tod and they’ve got this whole system of like, you order and they bring stuff out to your car. It’s really, really, really good. And then there’s, there’s a few really good Vermont. Beers. Um, Headie Topper is the one that sort of started the trend topper.

[00:38:32] Matt Hummel: Okay.

[00:38:33] Rick Nendza: Um, and like Sip of Sunshine is another one. Um, there’s actually, so I live in Walpole, mass. In Norwood, mass is Castle Island Brewery. So they have kind of a cool little space in like a, you know, a food truck with pizza. Yeah. So there’s all, all these cool little scenes that pop up that I, I hope it, I hope it, uh, sticks around.

[00:38:53] Matt Hummel: That’s awesome. Well, you’re speaking my language. I love a good IPA, um, clicky. Our good buddy [00:39:00] Tom Click was in Boulder, Colorado with me. This was a few weeks ago. And you know, Tom, he’s usually a, a whiskey guy, but we went to a bar and um, he goes, Hey, I’ll be right back. I gotta make a quick call. Order me, just gimme whatever you’re gonna get.

[00:39:16] Matt Hummel: And Colorado has a great craft bruising as well, and mm-hmm. So I ordered him a local IPA. He comes back and he, he drinks, he’s like, that was incredible. We had one the next night. The next morning he’s heading back home to, you know, to Boston or outside, and he texts me at probably six 15 in the morning and he go, he goes, is it bad that I’m really wishing?

[00:39:40] Matt Hummel: We were sitting at the bar right now having another one of those IPAs beforehand home, and I’m like, look, as they always say, it’s five o’clock somewhere, so.

[00:39:47] Rick Nendza: Right, exactly.

[00:39:48] Matt Hummel: So. We’re both parents. You’ve got two girls. I’ve got two boys, but I’m sure you’ve got some, some great stories. Any good stories. I know they’re into soccer, but any stories that you know you’d wanna share about your daughters?[00:40:00]

[00:40:00] Rick Nendza: Yeah, so, so it’s funny they’re into sports and I, you know. Having a family a little bit later. I, I used to look at like, my friends who were taking their kids to practices and thinking like, oh my God, this has gotta be torture. Um, but I, but I, I found that I, I love it. Like, you know, fifth grade, third grade, you leaned into

[00:40:17] Matt Hummel: it.

[00:40:17] Rick Nendza: Yeah, yeah, totally. And there was, um, so we’re at, you know, this soccer fields every weekend and, and, um. Last year we missed a sign up for lacrosse. And so it was like it was shut down, filled up. And so I texted the guy who runs like the youth of Lacrosse in our town and it said, you know, any chance.

[00:40:37] Rick Nendza: Caroline can get in and he’s like, actually there is, there is a chance. He’s like, you’ve just been named Coach. So I was like, okay.

[00:40:45] Matt Hummel: For the small price of,

[00:40:47] Rick Nendza: right, exactly. It’s like she’s in and you’re, you’re the, I was actually the assistant coach, but I, I said, you know, I don’t know much about lacrosse. And he said, you just have to know more than a second grader.

[00:40:55] Rick Nendza: Like, just show up. So, and it ended up being a great experience. Like we [00:41:00] learned, we learned together and it was memorable. So. Uh, yeah. So that, that, that was a good one. But, you know, I love it. We’ll be on soccer fields all weekend.

[00:41:08] Matt Hummel: That’s cool. Well, one of my sons played lacrosse for one season before he realized it wasn’t for him.

[00:41:13] Matt Hummel: But I never, I never really understood it. ’cause I, I had one year to learn it, but I was very much, I was not the assistant coach. So I, I know enough about the sport to understand, like, all sports, you need to score more than the other team, and you need to throw the ball into the net. But is it, is it more like soccer?

[00:41:29] Matt Hummel: Is it more like football? Is it. Or is it totally different?

[00:41:33] Rick Nendza: Yeah, it’s, I would say it’s almost, it’s like a soccer hockey. The, the spacing’s kind of the same, where you want to get the, get the ball to the middle and that sort of thing. Yeah. There’s, I, we haven’t figured out defense in, you know, women’s lacrosse yet because you can’t really hit

[00:41:50] Matt Hummel: okay

[00:41:51] Rick Nendza: each other.

[00:41:51] Rick Nendza: Um, so, you know, we’re figuring that out as we go and we, we, um. We actually had, as luck would have, we, we live right near the, [00:42:00] um, football stadium in Foxborough and we were leaving Memorial Day and the Final four was here for men’s and women’s ncaa. Oh, cool. And we had a friend of, a friend, the family of one of the North Carolina women’s players, their whole family stayed at, at our house.

[00:42:16] Rick Nendza: So now our girls are rabid North Carolina fans, even though we live nowhere, nowhere near there. They know. All the girls on the team. So, um,

[00:42:24] Matt Hummel: you know, another, another cool, cool sports connection. That’s awesome. Well, Rick, this has been an amazing conversation. I really appreciate it. I know I got a lot out of it.

[00:42:33] Matt Hummel: I know our listeners will get a lot out of it, so just really want to thank you for being on the show and great having you on. Always great to catch up with you as well.

[00:42:41] Rick Nendza: Yeah, I appreciate it, Matt. This was fun.

[00:42:46] Matt Hummel: Thanks again to Rick for joining us on today’s episode of The Pipeline Brew. I hope you’ll enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Please leave me a comment with your thoughts and make sure you subscribe to the show so you’ll never miss an episode. Once again, I’m Matt Hummel and I’ll see [00:43:00] you next time.